David Murrow -via Skype in Chattanooga!

Arlen Byrd's notes from the last Chattanooga Area Alliance for Men’s Ministry dinner. Many thanks to Arlen for these really good minutes. MacClellan Foundation on sponsoring a great night and the 100 plus men that attended. Bernie and the hard work setting it all up. Next Meeting September 17th. Make plans to join us!

009-07 CAAMM meeting notes

Discuss

• How is the Spiritual thermostat setting you see in your church? Discuss at your tables while you eat.
• Comfort (always be nice), Confrontation (sins to avoid), Ceremony, Conformity, Control, Challenge
• We may see these themes in the speaker’s presentation tonight.

In our group:

• Sometimes we are friendly with ourselves and we don’t reach out beyond our circle
• The comfort zone that people have – that permeates all that people do – if we’re not comfortable with a tradition or a teaching, we avoid it – or if we are too comfortable, we hide in it
• With comfort we are not challenged
• If I am being challenged and called to use my talents and gifts, it helps me to find my place and develop that sense of worth and belonging
• If you ask for volunteers, no one will except those that always do – you have to know people and ask them individually based on their strengths and abilities

Dave’s presentation

Introduction by Doug:

• The idea of coming together is to be encouraged, share vision, and fellowship together
• About a year ago I read this book, Why Men Hate Going to Church
• “When it comes to spiritual matters, societies always follow the lead of men. Today’s men are focused on the secular, so today’s culture is focused on that as well. Unless Christianity engages men, Christianity will continue to wane.” . . .
• The answer is through the local church, to engage men and help them to embrace their true purpose and calling
• [bio read by Doug] – get this from him

Dave begins:

• Are you a denominational group? (No)
• Normally whenever I speak to groups of men I am there in person, of course, and I bring a powerpoint of lots of humorous things – men falling asleep in church, being forced to hold hands, etc – these things turn men off
• I’m going to talk about the gender gap
• 61% female and 39% male (adults) – little boys haven’t had the chance to quit yet
• Youth – juniors and seniors – 70% girls – almost all the young missionaries that go overseas are female – YWAM (Youth with a mission) – usually the only thing that brings men back is marrying a woman who drags them to church
• I wrote my book to call attention to this problem – practically every church in the world has more women than men. Overseas the problem is even worse – China, the Philippines, Africa. Then I get letters from women who read my second book and they say there are basically no Christian men to marry in their entire country.
• There is a joke the women tell about Christian men – Christian men are like parking spaces – the good ones are already taken or they are handicapped
• So I launched church for men so men could find resources for what is working in men’s ministry
• I’m not a big men’s ministry fan – our solution is always to start a program. I’m not advocating that. The men aren’t very interested, you do a lot of work, and then in 2 years it falls apart.
• Instead, what I advocate is to take all your existing services and to look at it through the eyes of a young man – is there anything that would engage them
• This is not just marketing – when you look at Jesus Christ, he called 12 men to his side
• I still believe the key is to engage the younger men at a gut level and your church will grow
• The mega churches, they all started with a group of younger men – they were engaged – what happens when you engage them, the women come too – nothing more attractive to a godly woman than a godly man
• The bottom line – when I advise churches, your men’s ministry is your church service, your youth group, your regular programming that you are already doing. Unless it has a masculine feel the men will become disengaged.
• One thing I like to show is a picture of my wife riding around in a tank at Promise Keepers in New Zealand. She was so excited about that, all happy to be in this tank. Women love guy things. I have another picture of a thing I show with me holding a purse. What do you feel like when your wife asks you that? Men are horrified by that.
• So, if we create an environment where the top priority is love, acceptance, warm and fuzzy, the women will love it, but the men will say get me out of here.
• If you create a masculine environment, everyone will like it – men, women, children
• If you want to see the presentation in full, you can order my presentation on DVD on my website
• I’ll see before I get to Q & A, I think it was mentioned that I am currently working for Sarah Palin – she will no longer be governor in 9 days – it has it’s perks

Bernie:

• We’ll collect the cards
• I’m reminded of the all inclusive men’s ministry ideas of Pat Morley. You are tying right into this, no man left behind.

• Question – what are some man things for church?
• Answer – the music is an easy way to begin – you know hymnals, those things you can get on eBay, they have a lot of good stuff in them. Onward Christian Soldiers, and others. Now we have mostly Jesus love songs. Back in the day it was more balanced. So what I’m really talking about is the lyrics more than the style. Another thing, men are visual, so they believe what they see. Flowers, needlepoint banners, quilts, this and that. Guys hang out where there is competition in the air, dark, etc. It just doesn’t have that warm, nursing home kind of feel. The way we talk – Christians tend to talk in an insider language. I tell Pastors when they pray, anybody really, we like to go in a strange language. We say “Let’s pray … Father God … Father, God”. If we read the Psalms, it’s like “crush my enemies under my feet.” I just encourage people to talk to God like they would a real person. We don’t have to do this smarmy kind of thing. We often make it so those who don’t feel like they really have the verbal experience can’t pray in Church. We want to make it real so they feel adequate to pray themselves.
• Bernie – so how can we provide that, a place where they can see what this is like, and what risks must I be willing to take as a pastor or leader to see the guys talk to God like a real person?
• Dave – if you are the Pastor, start small with a few guys. Teach the men in that group. We’re going to pull up an empty chair for God. We’re going to talk to God as a real person without our eyes closed. All this religion stuff stratisfies the church. You want the guys to know that they can talk to God and engage with him. Humble yourself, reject your power to be religious, and choose not to use this skill to be better than your guys. When we see Pastors relating to guys on a regular level and with God, the guys really respond to that.
• Bernie – any other ways to break out of that?
• Dave – I have a book coming out soon called The Map. I see a pattern in scripture, a series of three great journey’s in life. I’m working on a discipleship journey to complement it. If you’ve been in a Bible study group, guys sit around the circle, read in the Bible, eat chips, fill in blanks or even Bibles. With Jesus I see a teacher who lead the men through experiences. So with what we are providing, 20-25 experiences. We haven’t tried this yet, we don’t have the lessons written yet, but hopefully we’ll be helping to take men through this Map process. Personally, I’m just sick to death of our sit in a circle, read from Bibles and eat chips kind of approach. I want to get out in the community and make a change.
• Bernie – what are those three journey’s?
• Dave – sure, in Matthew’s gospel, scholars don’t think this is blow by blow chronology. So why did he choose the chronology he did? The theme you see is submission, giving up his power, in the wilderness, then the sermon on the mount – if you stopped there, you’d see a very wimpy Jesus. If you look at all the lives of the great men, you see this period of submission though. Moses, Joseph, David, etc. After you turn the corner and come off the mountain in chapter 8, you see a completely different thing. Rebuking, casting out demons. From submission to strength. From Matthew 26-28, he kind of goes wimpy on us again. They arrest him, allow him to be beaten, he doesn’t stand in his own defense. So this journey is sacrifice. If you look at all the great men you see this in some form. Those who didn’t, their lives ended very badly. We’re using these three journey’s to disciple our men and then challenge them to disciple other men.
• Bernie – thank you. I can also see that process in the way Jesus discipled his men.

• Question – how do you motivate a man?
• Answer – it depends on what you are motivating him to do. If you are trying to get him into teaching a Sunday school, you may not have success. But you need to understand who he is, his strengths and potential and help him to get involved with that. Get him into a small group where he can develop friendships and be engaged personally. If you think about it, the way we disciple our men, if they aren’t good readers, then they can’t become disciples, they are unacceptable. That tears my heart out. I can’t see Jesus doing that.

• Question – how would you compare/contrast the kind of men Jesus chose with the kind of men we see today? His men had probably been prepared.
• Answer – everyone wants an Acts 2 church. But first there was a Luke 10 church (72 disciples), a Luke 8 church (12 disciples and women with Jesus), Luke 6 (12 disciples). Next week in Dallas I’m going to present that, an idea about church planting. You start with 12 men and you disciple them intently for a year, and then after that year those 12 get into pairs and disciple more. Once you have 84 men, the church is full. You don’t allow any more men to come in. If Jesus could only handle 84 men, what makes us think we can handle 15,000. So many men have no one to disciple them, they just go through the motions, but they are lost. What I am proposing is a church where every man is being personally discipled by someone else. Do you think that church is going to be able to do great things?
• I have a website for this, not up yet, but it will be – once the book comes out in March. www.threejourneys.com. I don’t know if it will work or not, but I am praying about it.

• Question – has Jesus been feminized? How can we present him as a King and Warrior.
• Answer – if you think about it, when do unchurched men come to church the most. Easter, Christmas and mother’s day. Beat up victim, a baby, or loving his mother. We have a lot of work to man Jesus back up to what he really is. One of the ways people have changed this is by drawing pictures of Jesus toughed up. We just need balance, just let the text speak for itself. We need balance. Don’t soft pedal Jesus between Matthew 8 and 25. We need to preach that as well as the softer Jesus, the full picture. It’s like building a house: the foundation is the submission, the mid level is the strength, the roof is the sacrifice. You mostly see the middle part, but they are all important.

• Question – how has working for governor Palin this last month affected your faith?
• Answer – I feel blessed to be here at this point of time, being in the national eye, working for a kind of celebrity, but the big things going on are what is going on in the spiritual world. What is really going to matter is what is done for Christ. The last few weeks have been a roller coaster and I haven’t gotten much sleep, but it has helped me to realize that what really matters is not the New York Times, but the spiritual battle and realm.
• Bernie – thank you, let’s give him a round of applause.

Discussion lead by Hank

• Like I said, he talks about the spiritual thermostat settings in the book. What do you see in your church?
• Answer: a lot of what we see is just trying to make folks comfortable, we’re glad they are here, we don’t want to run them off. That mixed in with the ceremony. I don’t think we take into consideration hardly at all what it looks like to them.
• Answer: we have a tendency to put us at a lower point – how well we speak, talk, we discourage them. What he touched on there about going out and getting other men connected outside of the church, what we really need to do is look at the heart of people and not just try to pack the church.
• Answer: we have a tendency of talking down on Christians that are not like us, O you drug addict, how bad you are. It’s how you approach or confront that individual, sometimes we have a way of running of members or people that would join your church. Church is a spiritual hospital for a lot of people, we need to remember that.
• Answer: one of my pet peeves is sitting in a service where whoever is speaking waxes eloquent about the deficits or sins of another competitive minister, church or denomination. It not only makes me feel anxious, but I wonder if there are men or even women who are in the church who are not long time church people who may not be familiar with what they are talking about and it doesn’t help the kingdom of God.
• Answer: the church I’m a part of is the challenging church. It’s everything that goes on in our church – Pastor and men’s ministry – not to keep it in the church, but to take it outside. How do we reach the men who have nothing to do with the church. We need to find out where they are at, what they are doing, learn who they are, and if we know where they are at we have a place to start. A lot of the men in our church have the same heart – we are challenged on a daily basis, not to look down on someone, but to find out where a person’s heart is, because it isn’t the outward performance or appearance that matters, it is the heart. Then we can go and disciple them.
• Hank – divorce rate is at 55%, there are so many men who want to know Christ. The last thermostat Dave takes us to is the challenge. Men need things to be challenged for. For this particular moment in time, just like the times of Peter and Paul, you and I, this is our time for Christ. I don’t know about you, I want to be excited and live my time here for Christ, always advancing and never declining. We are here at the particular time and our time is now. We need to look at the church and see how we can adjust the thermostat to see how we can become mighty men of God.

Opportunities:

• No Man Left Behind books
• Fish magazine
• October 9-10 – discipleship training session at Brainerd Baptist Church – outstanding speakers – brainerdbaptist.org
• Flag Football, recreational ministry of Chamberlin Memorial Baptist – sign up by July the 31st, teams formed August 1, the first game is September 12
• Iron Sharpens Iron – we had been looking at a biblical model of how we can assist the widows, orphans, shut-ins and single moms. Over the past few months we have been working as a team with Herb – New Commandment Ministry. He will be coming January 23rd (Saturday) that morning. We’re piloting 4 teams right now, we have identified people within our body to begin with. We understand that men like to do and to be men of action, and we understand we are to take care of people. It’s an exciting time and a great opportunity to live as men, fulfilling our design.
• You must RSVP, register in advance. Register on www.mensministry.org. We’ll put that link up ASAP and you can start registering now. Our guest that night will be live, Hal Haden, he’s with Christian Leadership Concepts, he is faithfully plugging away discipling men and challenging and helping them to do the same. The question I have for you is who will you invite? Bring someone else. Jesus sent them out 2 by 2, why do we go out 1 by 1. If you are already here, make a contact with another church down the street. Let’s see what God wants to do to change the Chattanooga area.

New direction

• What’s in a word or a name – Chattanooga Area Coalition of Men’s Ministries – there are many others like that. There was a typo in an article, but perhaps it is helpful. The Chattanooga Area Coalition for Men’s Ministry. But maybe that is good. Are we here FOR men’s ministry or to just be OF men’s ministry. When you tell most folks, when you are for men’s ministry, most women are excited, they say God bless you, we are for that. Let’s stand up and be FOR men’s ministry. Ministries is a noun. But ministry is a verb. We are for action, that’s what it says. We are for changing the lives of men. But as I thought about that, what about one more change. Chattanooga Area Alliance for Men’s Ministry. A coalition is specifically temporary. An alliance is a close association for a common objective. Let’s get to know some other men outside of our own church who have a common heart for men’s ministry. So who are we? The Chattanooga Area Alliance for Men’s Ministry.
• [purpose]
• [vision]
• We want your feedback on this. This is just a draft.
• We are trained to present the gospel, so we know how to give the message, but our own life is not transformed, so the messenger does not give the clear message.
• Relationship – developing authentic relationships, not just resources. If people are just given resources and not brought into a relational process we will not see transformation.
• What if we saw ourselves as that kind of an alliance [ . . . ]
• We’re on that journey, but can we help each other on it?
• We’d like your feedback. If you don’t like it, tell me. If God’s in it, he’ll change it. This is what we sense God saying to us. If you like it, I’d like to hear from you to.
• With that, any questions?
• Comment: we have got to reach out beyond just Chattanooga

Wrap up with Bernie

• Tell me what elements you see on the back of the sheet that we were focusing on tonight.
• Answer: The man code
• Where is the message we tell them about where they fit, what this is about. Stepping back and looking at how we come across in our services, in our youth groups. Are young men made to feel a vital part of that, that all inclusive ministry to men, how well that ties back in. I’m not pitching the No Man Left Behind book as the end all model, but I think it really is on target. It’s as well written in my 28 year’s of men’s ministry as anything I’ve seen on this topic. I did want to put 4 things on this diagram that I want to see added to or enhanced, unpacked and made more specific.
  1. Knowing where most men are, where they are starting from. If you try to jump ahead and meet them where they are not at, you will miss them. They will feel like they don’t fit in here, like they are in the downward spiral, the issue of what it is to be an authentic man is the starting point, what God’s blueprint is. You can try to motivate and tug at him and he will maybe give you a little bit for a little while, but it won’t get there without starting there.
  2. A core process for getting guys there – like what we were talking about this relating to Matthew
  3. Two others too
• We’re kicking around ideas about how to take things further. So if you’d like to come together for a few weeks to enhance this and take it deeper, we have a pilot group, and we’d like to have you join us, just give us your contact information. We’re praying about that – not pushing it, just hatching it.
• I hope you are picking up the theme, those who have been here on other occasions – disciple men, build deeply into a few so they can multiply. That is how Jesus did it, and that is how we will build the Church and change the world we are in.